Pacquiao and PEDs...

[Smooth]

I've been having a heated two-day debate on another forum about Pac and potential PED use since he began rising up in weight back in 2008.

Please answer the poll question above. I'd like to hear the BTBC's opinion on the matter.

[Eddie]

YES. Being caferully matched alone doesn't explain how a fighter who was slightly above average and was out-hustled by an already declining Erik Morales went on to "blossom" into this "mighty monster", all of it while NOT improving one bit in skills over that fight, while STILL being essentially a one-armed fighter, STILL without having developed credible defense other than his legs nor the scientific use of the jab.

People can compare his late blossom to Martinez's one but people forget Martinez IS a counterpuncher and it takes years and years to master that style. Still, Martinez is a born athlete and has a strong soccer-bycicle background. Pac has never had none of it. Martinez has a jab and IS elusive. Pac is not.

I'll conclude by sayin' this. A late blossom that has brought 5 titles in 5 different weight classes ALL OF IT on a very short time-frame. How short? LESS than 4 years. Actually 3 years and a half.

I'll say it again: in 3 years and a half, 5 titles in 5 different weight classes. It-just-doesn't-happen. That's it.

I have nothing against hi personally, it's just that we have to call spade a spade here. Just call'em how we see'em.

Eddie

[troydogg]

The Head growth along over the short period of time makes me believe he was taking something.

[bigswa]

This ain't even a debate - He straight Orenthal James

[Eddie]

This ain't even a debate - He straight Orenthal James

LOL!

[Smooth]

I tend to think he's on a specifically tailored cocktail of PEDs as well.

That said, what about the position that he's been carefully matched and that his abilities have been a grand allusion due to the limited/old/weight-drained nature of his opposition and that his recent fight with JMM proves he's not superhuman?

Thoughts on that?

[Green*Machine]

That said, what about the position that he's been carefully matched and that his abilities have been a grand allusion due to the limited/old/weight-drained nature of his opposition and that his recent fight with JMM proves he's not superhuman?

Thoughts on that?

I definitely think this is the case, and can pretty much be "proven" just by looking at the facts surrounding his record.  Marquez is a classic example of styles making fights...Marquez even still just has the style to make Manny look ordinary.

Of course, he's not the first world class fighter to use carfeful matchmaking, but he's pretty much made it an art form and rode the wave to super stardom. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Bradley is the first top notch fighter than Manny's facing while still in his prime (Bradley I mean).  I'm just curious as to what BS will sprout if Manny wins,   

[Eddie]

I tend to think he's on a specifically tailored cocktail of PEDs as well.

That said, what about the position that he's been carefully matched and that his abilities have been a grand allusion due to the limited/old/weight-drained nature of his opposition and that his recent fight with JMM proves he's not superhuman?

Thoughts on that?

I also agree that he's been very carefully match-maked and the last two attempts (Marquez and Bradley) are still attempts at matchmaking.

They thought Marquez was shopworn and couldn't have gained weight without compromising his body too much. Marquez is also older than Pac. Guess what, they were WRONG.

In Bradley they just see a fighter with no power. They believe somehow Manny will find a way to win by KO. So in their mind the intent of these two fights IS the same: create favorable mismatches.

Cotto-Clottey-Margarito-ODLH are non-counterpunchers, non-slick fighters whose only idea was to bumrush Pac coming straight forward. They all failed because they all had the same gameplan. However, when Cotto decided, (albeit in his worst shape mentally, phisically and without the balance that he has now) to boxe with Pac for some rounds, he had very good results (aside from the two knockdowns who were balance knockdowns basicaly).

They had to weight-drain Morales, the second fight. Morales was so weight drained that someone had to raise his hand during the lecture of the scale at the weight-in. Rios during the weight-in for his Murray fight looked better. And that's sayin' somethin....

Carefully match-making plus PED made a star of a fighter that before PBF left Arum was nowhere near the p4p elite. However people can't see through the hype-smokescreens.

[Green*Machine]

I also agree that he's been very carefully match-maked and the last two attempts (Marquez and Bradley) are still attempts at matchmaking.

They thought Marquez was shopworn and couldn't have gained weight without compromising his body too much. Marquez is also older than Pac. Guess what, they were WRONG.

In Bradley they just see a fighter with no power. They believe somehow Manny will find a way to win by KO. So in their mind the intent of these two fights IS the same: create favorable mismatches.

Bingo. 

[Smooth]

Let's be fair on the mismatch side tho, guys.... Clottety, Cotto, Tony, Mosley, Hatton, JMM and Bradley is an impressive list of consecutive opponents.

[Eddie]

Let's be fair on the mismatch side tho, guys.... Clottety, Cotto, Tony, Mosley, Hatton, JMM and Bradley is an impressive list of consecutive opponents.

That's where the smokescreen starts: NAMES. Like Alì on Holmes's resumè (and I consider myself a fan of Larry).

Smooth: timing is everything in boxing, and Arum knows it. Cotto was at his worst, Clottey is ulstra-defensive. Tony wel....without plaster is above average, Hatton was at his worst, JMM won IMO, Bradley looks good on paper but we'll have to wait.

The list itself IS impressive. But all of'em started almost handicapped. Catchweights, timing, both (Cotto's case)

I don't care if you're Usain Bolt. You can't let your opponent start running a second later than you do. It's not fair. You might win anyway, but this way we'll never know.

Mosley just showed up for the payday....don't forget he signed with Top Rank just for that fight, as JMM did, but someone forgot to tell Juan to lay down....so they made him pay the price for it.

"ON paper" is the key word. It's what Arum does: create an illusion of greatness based on opponents that "on paper" were bigger, stronger, better. We, as true boxing fans, know better.

[Eddie]

I might add that what Pac has done over the las 5 years, the way he has handpicked his fights is NOT unprecedented.

Leonard chose to rematch Duran after the latter balooned up to 200 pounds. The same Leonard who waited untill Hagler looked bad, being outboxed by a brawler like Mughabi, and just to make sure he'd have all the advantages, asked for a bigger ring to dance around Marvin better.

Alì (Paul might get mad at me), by admission of Pacheco, chose Frazier a third time (the Thrilla in Manila fight) because he thought Joe was shot.

The thing is that over the course of their carreers Alì (plenty of times) and Leonard (at least in his Duran fight and the Hearns one) proved to shine under pressure. They had defining fights who elevated both combatant's status (Alì vs Frazier I, II, III; Alì vs Norton I, II, III; Leonard vs Duran I, Leonard vs Hearns I) to legends.

Pac, outside his first fight (lost) with Morales, has the trilogy with Marquez. Good trilogy, but I'd take Leonard vs Duran I or Leonard vs Hearns I anyday of the week. Plus, the perception that Marquez may very well have won at least 2 of these 3 bouts...gives us a different perception of his legacy.

Aside Marquez for Pacquiao and Pacquiao for Marquez....since 2007:

Pacquiao:
07: Jorge Solis,Barrera (shot),
08: (JMM), David Diaz, DeLaHoya,
09: Hatton, Cotto,
10: Clottey, Margarito
11: Mosley, (JMM)

Juan Manuel Marquez:
07: Barrera (shot), Rocky Juarez,
08: (PAC), Casamayor (old but not shot)
09: Juan Diaz, FMJ (L)
10: Juan Diaz, Katsidis,
11: Lykar Ramos, (PAC)
12: Fedchenko (supposed to be a tune-up for Rios)

@ Smooth: OF COURSE Pac's names are better. But JMM didn't use timing nor catchweights/stipulations to beat'em.

"Hatton-Clottey-Margarito-Mosley" beat as name-reckognition "Casamayor, Juan Diaz twice, Katsidis, FMJ (loss)".

The truth is that while Marquez was truly tested in all of these fights and aside the FMJ one, delivered under pressure....Pac hasn't been tested by his 4 opponents for different reasons.

I still remember when Paul defined Pacquiao's opponents as "declawed tigers". To this day, it's the best definition we can give'em.

One way or another, Pac WILL keep winning. Either by clever matchmaking or because of corrupt judging/refereeing, Pac WILL win. He knows he'll win. He HAS to win. He's a moneymaker, the golden goose. People make money because of him. Roach does. Ariza does. Arum does too.
you can't say the same about JMM, uh...

[Smooth]

Eddie:

You can't have it both ways. Either Pac has put in superhuman efforts and is on PEDs or his opponents were compromised in some way and Pac looked better than he is.

You are trying to have it both ways here.

On one hand you start off the thread by saying that the 5 weight titles in 3 years is proof of PED use then in the same thread you claim that the names have been impressive but it's all smoke and mirrors.

Which one is it?

[Paul Magno]

Eddie:

You can't have it both ways. Either Pac has put in superhuman efforts and is on PEDs or his opponents were compromised in some way and Pac looked better than he is.

You are trying to have it both ways here.

On one hand you start off the thread by saying that the 5 weight titles in 3 years is proof of PED use then in the same thread you claim that the names have been impressive but it's all smoke and mirrors.

Which one is it?

Why can't it be both?

[Eddie]

Eddie:

You can't have it both ways. Either Pac has put in superhuman efforts and is on PEDs or his opponents were compromised in some way and Pac looked better than he is.

You are trying to have it both ways here.

On one hand you start off the thread by saying that the 5 weight titles in 3 years is proof of PED use then in the same thread you claim that the names have been impressive but it's all smoke and mirrors.

Which one is it?

Why can't it be both?

Exactly....why can't it be both?

Clever matchmaking will make you choose fighters that are hittable-not in their best condition. It's a HELP, just like knowing that no matter what you'll never lose if you go to the scorecards.

But at the end of the day, looking better as you move up, engaging more as you move up 5 weight classes, it's NOT just because of matchmaking.

Being able to take shots from Cotto, no matter how mentally shot he was, it's not something that has to do with matchmaking. Same thing for Clottey.